Decision Dialogues
Decision Dialogues

Episode · 1 year ago

Maxing Out Savings Decisions - Ep 05

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On episode 5 of Decision Dialogues, Mark Willoughby and Jennifer Faherty talk to Gary Zimmerman, who founded MaxMyInterest.com, an intelligent cash management solution. They discuss Gary's decision to leave his career as an investment advisor to found Max My Interest—from noticing the problem, to “de-risking” his business plan, figuring out the technological and security challenges, and the support he had from his wife. Get the full show notes and more resources at ModeraWealth.com/DecisionDialogues.

Are you paving the way for the life you want facing decisions that may affect you personally and financially? The decision dialogs podcast, brought to you by Modera Wealth Management, presents personal stories about navigating through life's pivotal moments, narratives that we hope will inspire you as you create your own story. You'll learn what influence their next steps and gain insights that could help you with your own critical choices. Welcome to decision dialogs. Thanks for joining us on decision dialogs. Were thrilled to have you along. My name is Mark Willoby and I'm a principal wealth manager and the Chief Operating Officer of Madera Wealth Management Llc. Today, my colleague Jennifer Ferrety, who is chief Client Experience Officer at Madeira, and I will be chatting with Gary Zimmerman, managing partner of six trees capital LLC and founder of Max, my interestcom. Welcome everyone to the show and I will hand it over to Jennifer. Thank you, mark, and thank you gary so much for joining us today. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you mark. I'm really excited to hear about Max my interest and your business. Learn more about your business and how it got started, and maybe that's where we could start off, is just tell us a little bit more about Max my interest and what what the inspiration was behind it. Sure. Thank you, Jennifer. So, Max my interest is what we call an intelligent cash management solution. It's designed to help individual investors and their families, as well as their financial buzzers, better managed cash. And it's sort of funny to talk about cash because most people don't think very much about the cash that's in their portfolio or even the cash that's sitting outside of their portfolio, but we think of cash as an asset class that in many ways could be a very deliberate allocation, just like stocks and bombs and real estate and alternatives. And so that's what Max does. It...

...helps people are in the highest deal possible on that cash well, keeping all of those funds same day, liquid and fdicee in short, and their own bank accounts. The business itself is really an accidental business. I was not looking to start a company at all. I spent the first fifteen years of my career as an investment banker and the inspiration for Max came during the financial crisis, when the bank where I worked was teetering on the brink of insolvency and it struck me that all my cash that was sitting there might not be as safe as I thought it was, and so I was simply looking for a better way to manage cash. And so this was really the outcropping of my own strategy. When we realize that many more people could benefit from the same approach. Wow, so you were really that classic example of being a customer of yourself. First, it sounds like you saw a problem and you wanted to solve it for yourself, and then it kind of turned into an idea for a business. Is that right? That's exactly right. But then how? Take us through a little bit about that decision. So you know it worked because you were doing it yourself. But then what? What comes next? Well, it didn't happen overnight. is to sort of a gradual transition. So the Max Story, I guess begends back in two thousand and nine, right in the middle of the financial crisis, when the bank where I was working was, all a sudden on shaky ground and I was looking for a way to keep cash safe. And so the simplest thing I could think of was to take my cash, open up multiple bank accounts at multiple different banks and spread it out across multiple banks so that I kept it below the FDIC insurance limited each institution. And the advantage of doing it that way is not only did I have increased FDIC insurance coverage, but I also had greater liquidity and optionality. So if any of those banks were to fail, I'd eventually get my money back, but I would still have liquidity the other banks, and that was really important to me. If we had sort of look back historically, a lot of brokerage firms use what are called brokeer deposit systems, where they basically tell you don't wear your cash is all insured, but what they're doing behind the scenes is selling it to other banks and they're...

...serving as an intermediary in the problem with those approaches is that, well, your cash might be insured, it's not fully liquid and during the financial crisis liquidity was just as important a safety. So that was sort of the origin and I began managing these bank accounts myself, manually, and I did it for about three and a half years. You know, watching interest rates, watching the FDIC limits and balances and reallocating cash whenever it made sense from bank to bank. One day I was sitting in my apartment going through this laborious process and I thought, Gosh, what am I doing? This is such a waste of my time. I should have a better thing to do on on a Sunday afternoon and I was about to stop. I thought, why am I wasting my time on this? And I looked back and I realized I'd picked up an extra K or so of incremental risk free return. And as someone who spent his whole career in finance, that's sort of what often people in finance referred to as Alpha, that elusive incremental risk free return, and I thought, well, Gee, I'm probably not the only person with this problem. If I could automate this, not only could I benefit from this approach on an ongoing basis without having to spend any more time on it, but other people could benefit as well. And so I started digging into the market and I did the sort of classic back of the envelope analysis, and what I found really shocked me. What I found was that if you looked just at the top one percent of US population collectively, they were holding a trillion and a half in cash. And if you looked a little more broadly at the top four percent of the population, which was basically any household with more than a million of assets, they were collectively holding close to four trillion dollars in cash. And as I started asking around and just asking people where they were keeping their cash and what it was earning, what I found is that the vast majority of this cash was simultaneously underinsured and under earning, and sort of quickly figured out that US households were probably under earning about about fifty billion dollars a year, roughly equivalent to the profitability of the big four banks, and I thought, well, Gosh, if there's a way to...

...scale this through technology in a safe and secure, an easy manner, then people could recapture what is really rightfully there's. That's incredible. Interestingly, though, so you really did see the problem and kind of a clear solution. Interestingly, though, that you would just come out of the financial crisis right was we all did. So, you know, we talked with our clients around risk, personal risk, investment risk, all that kind of stuff. We just came out of kind of this, you know, kind of scary time. was there any a moment in their thing, even if you had this very clear solution and problems, where it just felt so risky just because of the time period we just left? It did feel risky and it felt risky from a career perspective. And there's a difference between having an idea and acting on it. Many people have ideas, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should act on it. And so I spent about nine months conducting very detailed due diligence on the sector. I wanted to learn everything I could about the banking sector, about how cash is managed, about the existing intellectual property in the field, because I'm a actually very risk averse person. I think a lot of investment bankers are inherently risk averse. That's why their bankers are not traders. And so I was willing to take some risk, but I wasn't willing to take an unlimited amount of risk. And so could I do enough research to D risk this to on extent and I was able to de risk the business plan, but I was not able to de risk the technology risk. I had no idea whether this was actually executable from a tech perspective. It turns out that it should not have been, but we figured out a way to do it, and so when I left the bank, it was actually my wife, and I have to give her a lot of credit for giving me that extra push to say, you know, go ahead and do this, take this risk, and it did mean sort of a change in our lives. Like you, went from being a salaried employee to an entrepreneur and we were fortunate that we had the ability to take that risk. But it was that it was a very calculated risk at the time. Would you...

...say that count did at risk? Gary was more to do with the financial risk or are some other factor? It's a good question mark. I think it was both. There's financial risk, there's career risk. You know that the biggest cost of the business is what I would call opportunity cost. So yes, we personally invest in capital in the business. We did not accept to dine with outside capital until we had already built software that was up and running and proven that was a level of risk that I didn't want to expose anyone else too. So we had to prove that out first. But the biggest risks opportunity cost. Bankers are fairly highly compensated and the single biggest expense of the business was basically foregone salary. And there were broad our questions as well around career, and this is where my wife was really helpful and putting into perspective, because what she said is, if you go off and do this and it works, that's great, and if you go off and do this and it doesn't work, they will not have diminished any of your existing work experience. All it will do is add a new set of experiences and if anything, it'll probably give you greater empathy for your clients and understanding that what it's like to run a company, what it's like to be an entrepreneur, what it's like to have something you've built from the ground up, and I think she was right on all of those fronts. So that's really how I thought about it. Is What's the downside, and I was comparing, you know, the certainty of one outcome against the uncertainty of another outcome. But it didn't feel that there was nearly as much risk as I initially thought there was. Once I thought about it within that framework, sounds like you had a lot of good support there too. I think that that can help a lot. Can you tell us a little bit about how what other kind of sports you had and building your team and how you went about kind of surrounding yourself with other people as the company grew. Well, I was very fortunate in early days. I had developed the business plan but I had no idea whether the technology was workable. And it just so happened that a very close family friend from childhood I ran a software consulting business based in Chicago.

He was one of the two or three people who I shared this idea with early on. I said to him, look, I've got this idea and I think there's a market for it, but I'm not sure if the technology can be built, and he said, I think the technology can be built, but I'm not sure that there's a market for it. And that created this really wonderful early tension in the business because we were each there to prove each other wrong. Right. He was going to work and as team we're going to work as hard as they could to prove that they could build this and I was going to work as hard as I could to prove that someone would actually use it. And so we began working with this firm early on. I hired them initially on a consulting basis and we spend a bunch of time doing in tech world it's called spike work, or you're not trying to build a finished product, you're just kind of trying to prove that technological approaches. One of those approaches ended up becoming the subject of our first patent, where we had to develop some unique methods for building the system and making it actually workable because what we were trying to do had never been accomplished before and the team was really wonderful, and so for the first year or so we built all of the software in coordination with that team and then one of the lead engineers on that team came over to run technology for US internally with the support of that firm. But that was sort of how how it got started and for the first year we were just building. It was just a nonstop mad rush to build as quickly as we could, but build as thoughtfully as we could, and so we did a number of things that early stage companies rarely do. One of the things we did was sort of the opposite of what every Entrepreneurial Tech Book tells you to do. So the common wisdom is just put something out there and throw it out there. It doesn't have to be perfect, and just see how the mark it reacts. And our view was no, we're dealing with people's hard earned money and well, our software doesn't actually touch any money. There's a lot of trust that needs to be built, and so what we did is we hired one of the leading software consulting firms, software security consulting firms. They do work for nineteen of the...

...twenty largest banks and before we wrote a single line of code, we sat down into them and we said, look, this is what we'd like to build. We'd like to make this as secure as possible. How can we build security into the code itself? So, rather than build something sloppy and then put firewalls around it, we said let's actually write the code in such a way that it's secure. And that involved a big investment of time and money to get it right in the first place, but it's made everything since then so much easier. So our thought was we can only bring something to market if it's actually secure and scalable in the first place. A lot of good lessons there, I think, in terms of building a company and really thinking true, you know, making sure the foundation is really strong. You touch upon that right, because a lot of the start ups to have this mentality of bill the plane while for already flying it, you know, which is also really good advice as well. But that I like this approach that you had in terms of let's really think through what we need so we don't have to go and fix it later. Yeah, and there were mistakes that we made early on as well. You know. One of the mistakes was our system relied on people linking their existing online savings accounts together. So the ideas that you might have an existing brick and order checking account relationship at a bank, and that's probably a very sticky relationship. You'll probably never switch banks in your life. But those brick and mortar banks fundamentally can't afford to pay you a very high yield because they've got to pay for the heavy infrastructure costs associated with their branches. And the online banks have how much lower cost structure, so they're structurally able to pay you a higher yield and because in FDIC insured bank account is basically a commodity. The whole idea behind Max, my interest, was that we would help people marry their existing brick and mortar checking account with a portfolio of higher yielding online savings accounts. The mistake that we made is that we erroneously assumed the high net worth households would already have these online savings accounts and so all they need to do is take their existing accounts...

...and link them together. And what we found in practice is that almost no one had online savings accounts back in two thousand and fourteen when when we launched this, not only was there a big educational component of helping people understand what's the difference between a brick and mortar bank and an online bank, and the answers there's really no difference, but also we found that we had to make it easier for them to open those online savings accounts, and we've now been working for the last five years. It's sort of maniacally on how do we make that process as easy as possible. What we came up with, which was the subject of our second patent, is what we call the Max common application, and it was modeled after the common APP for colleges. So if anyone listening has college age students are, if you're graduate, who's WHO's been a college in the last twenty years? If you go back to the old days, it used to be that you had to request and application from each school you want to apply to. You had to fill it out an inch or with a typewriter mail it in, and if you applied to a dozen schools, you had to fill out twelve separate applications. Nowadays, of course, we're much more enlightened. You can go online to a single website, feel at a single form, click on the names of the schools to which you'd like to apply and pressed Oh. So we decided we would take that same approach for opening bank accounts, and so we built this process now where you can open multiple online savings accounts at multiple banks by filling out a single form and under sixty seconds. And in fact, our newest bank integration we've gotten that down to a little as sixteen seconds. So taking away that friction. You know that the sort of difference between Oh, this makes sense, I'd like to open an account of this bank versus I'm actually going to open an account of this bank. Taking away that friction was really important, but it's something that we hadn't adequately anticipated in the early days of Max. Can I bring you back to your I'm going to take a jump into your mind here, Gary, because you made this ound that the step of leaving the banking industry, sound like it was nothing, but I'm sure it wasn't nothing. You've been in a corporate career for how long at that point? I...

...think I heard you say fifteen years. That's right, fifteen years. Can we telescope into that moment where, from the the time you had the idea for the business to the time you decided? Okay, I'm going. You know, what were the good decisions you met back then? It sounded like you were lucky enough to have a financial basis to invest in the startup business yourself. You know you were going to build a business. Talk about about your network. What world did your network play like? What did you do really well? And describe the process where you got to the point where you're comfortable. Okay, I'm leaving Wall Street. Now I'm going to launch my own business. Mark. I think the network was very important and when you start a company it's really interesting journey because the early stages you've got to convince a number of other people to come along for the journey with you, and it's not just investors, it's employees, it's partners and fundamentally they have to trust in your vision and they have to trust in you. And if you talk to a number of early stage investors, they'll tell you that when they pick early stage companies, rarely are they betting on the business idea, because the business idea can change, circumstances can change. What they're betting on is the ability of the original team to adapt to change and to find the best path forward, because fundamentally, a company is a group of people. It's not an idea, and there are plenty of good ideas, but it's really about how you execute on those ideas. So, in order to pull together that group of people to get started on this mission, what really mattered is that they trusted in me and that they trusted my judgment and that I would be diligent and careful and that, you know, I wouldn't make decisions by the seas of my pants, but that things would be carefully analyzed and research, that we collect multiple perspectives and try to make the best decisions we could, and that's where I think both the network and the skills learned as an investment banker were very helpful. So what I lacked, of course, was experience operating a business. I'd never run a business, but what I had...

...and what had been drilled into me by so many mentors along the way, was the importance of diligence, of attention to detail, how to learn about an industry, how to build a financial model, how to analyze change in industries. I think a number of those skills are proved to be quite important and valuable. And so as I was thinking about this potential business again, early on it wasn't even really a potential business, but as I started to think about it more like a business, I spent many, many months, probably about nine months, conducting very careful due diligence. I might spare time evenings and weekends, in as much as those existed, as a banker, studying the market, trying to understand everything I could about banking and payments and funds transfer rules and all of the sort of underlying elements that were important, in my mind to de risking the business. When it came time to actually start the company. That's where you start to draw up on that network and are early investors. A lot of them were people, perhaps not surprisingly, who I'd met through the course of my career, and so they were included the former bank CEOS and chief operating officers and chief technology officers and heads of asset management firms. But they were people who had known me in a professional context, and so I think in some ways that derisk it for them in the sense that they could anticipate how I would behave, how diligent I would be. That by no means a short success, but I think it gave the confidence that this was if whether or not the idea was backable, this was a person who was reasonably backable and that in turn helped us to build build out the company and build up the team. And so now you've been with this business. You said about six years that, since it's two thousand and fourteen, that correct. We started the business in two thousand and thirteen, but the first product went live in two thousand and fourteen. So you've had experience of running down business on as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, and you also the experience of being, you know, the corporate world.

I'm curious do you miss anything about the corporate world and also, what's the best thing you would say having your own business? My biggest fear in leaving my job on Wall Street was that I would miss it too much, and I really loved being an investment banker and learned a ton in those fifteen years. This was an interesting career transition because I wasn't trying to leave, I sort of just felt the pull of this other idea and primarily which drove me was a sense of curiosity. Here's a at the time thirteen trillion dollar market, now it's a sixteen trillion dollar market that's inherently inefficient. Could we find a way to make it more efficient for the benefit of individual investors and it turns out also for the benefit of the banks, although I haven't realized that at the time. So it's really it's sort of that curiosity that drove the departure. But my biggest fear was that I would miss the sort of the deals too much. I was a an Ma Banchor and so you're often advising companies on finding other companies or merging joint ventures, etc. To my surprise, I really don't miss it that much. I had one one moment a couple of months in where I was in the gym one morning and C NBC was on about the treadmill and they were announcing the deals and out that morning and I had a brief moment there where I said, Gosh, I really missed this, and I have maintained in affiliation with an investment banks so I can stay involved in helping with a few things, but this has been such an immersive opportunity that I really haven't had time to miss it. And I think the thing that that's really been helpful is I think I now have a much better sense of empathy for the client and understanding what the client is going through, because as a banker you might be working on half a dozen different transactions at the same time and you care very deeply about each one, but a year later the transactions in the rearview mirror and you're onto the next three things. And what I've come to appreciate, and I think this is...

...this is true for a lot of business owners, is you know all the blood, sweat and tears that goes into building up business. It really is your baby and there's a lot of emotion tied up in the moment when someone sells a business, or even if it's if they're not the founder, but you know that they worked at a company ever since they graduated from college or Business School and they've worked their way all the way up and now they're, you know, in the top job. I never understood as a banker as certainly as a junior banker, I didn't really appreciate all the emotion that went along with those transactions because often could say, look, this merger is good for both companies, the economics work. And it turns out that what drives most emina deals are actually the social issues. Who's going to be CEO, who's going to be on the board? Which of their colleagues who they've worked with for decades are going to keep their jobs in which aren't? Who's going to be in charge of the united way donation budget, and all of these things in the statue in the community become really important. So it's given me certainly a new perspective for some of the folks who are thinking about embarking on the entrepreneurial trail. Gary, when you look back, what what are the decisions back then that were the most solid decisions you made, and are there any decisions that you could point to that you would have made differently now that you have some hindsight? I think that the choice of business is extremely important. Whatever you do, whatever your entrepreneurial journey is, you're going to invest an incredible amount of time and effort and money and energy and emotion into it and if you're going to make that sort of commitment, it had better be something worthwhile. So occasionally people will come to me and they say I want to start a business. I'll say, oh well, what is it? They said, I don't know, I don't know what the business is yet, I just want to start a business and I think, Gosh, why would you ever do that? And mean it's a terrible risk reward trade. Yes, the odds that it goes well are pretty low right, and so...

...it's a privilege to be able to take that sort of risk where it's not catastrophic. But when you hear people, I'm always so impressed when I hear these stories of people mortgaging their homes and putting on a second mortgage and moving into a trailer and and and they do all of these things because they believe so strongly and what they're working on, and it's incredibly admirable and I'm always so, so impressed by it. But it's also terribly reckless right and you only hear the success stories, but for every success story there are a myriad of stories of failure, and this is where I think a financial advisor can be really helpful in holding the hand of the client and helping them think through it it, not in an emotional way but in a very almost clinical way. Now a good advisor is also a good emotional handholder, but I think that clinician is really important because if the founder, the prospective founder, isn't prepared to think rationally at the outset, it's only going to get worse from then on in right. So you've got to make sure that they're truly mentally prepared and are applying a good, solid framework against the decision, any big decisions back then that you would have made differently now that you know what you know now. At the outset of Max I had spent a lot of time to studying the industry, but I had one major failing which is that in all my years as a bank or the one industry that I hadn't covered was financial institutions. And in some ways that's part of what made this during is so much fun, is that I've spent the last seven years or so, thinking almost exclusively about this business and about the industry and the structure. But Gosh, had I known more about the industry, I probably would have been a faster study and figured out some things much earlier on. So in the early days, as an example, in the early days of Max, I...

...thought about this very simplistically, which is we're going to create this software that is going to create greater efficiency in the market for bank deposits. And it's inefficiency in the market for bank deposits that is made both banks as well as the old wine brokerage firms, not not the registering gustment advisors who are for douciaries and and who sell advice, but rather the brokerage firms who sell product. Earning spread on that cash and other words paying the client below market rate on that cash has been the bread and butter of banks and brokerage firms for decades. And so my simplistic analysis of this market was that the brick and mortar banks will not be enamored with what we're doing and the online banks will love. What we're doing is we're helping with this transition from reliance on brick and mortar to online it's frankly the exact same thing that went on in the retail sector and if you look at the adoption of online banking, it's following the exact same adoption curve as e commerce. It's just about six years behind, but fundamentally it's exactly the same business. You're selling a commodity online instead of in a store, and so you can do it at a better price. But I had this very simplistic view that brick and mortar banks wouldn't like this, the brokerage firms wouldn't like this another bank and that the online banks would like it. The reality is that it's much more nuanced because what we learned along the way. We built our software with this assumption that people were never going to switch banks, and that assumption turns out to be very valuable for banks, because what Max does is it actually cements and further solidifies the relationship with that existing brick and mortar bank, because the client doesn't have to shop elsewhere for better rates on savings. We've integrated it all together. Similarly, in the wealth management space well, we found that the broker dealers were initially terrified of this. Registered investment advisors looked out of it from a very different Lens and they said, well, you know, we don't have custody of cash anyway. Way, we don't make any money on cash. We're just here to provide the best advice we can for our clients. If this...

...can help them earn higher returns on cash, which turns out to be a quarter of their assets, then we can help make the client better off, and so we found a very welcome and warm reception within our ash were fiduciaries, so we began building solutions for them to help them package this in a way that would work better for their clients. And basically everything we've done over the last five years has been focused on how do we integrate this more deeply into that ecosystem so that customers don't have to take our word for it, they can rely on the advice of their financial advisor. So had I understood the banking and wealth management sector better earlier on, I think we probably could have saved a couple of years in terms of how we oriented the company. Interesting, but it sounds like it worked out in the end right, and the good thing is it's really about pivoting and once you have of learning being able to pivot that business, you know, as quickly as possible and and grow from it really exactly. And it wasn't. Wasn't a massive pivot like twitter. Twitter was a massive pivot where they completely change their business. This was more of an evolution. The core value proposition, the core of what we do and how we do it hasn't really changed significantly, but how we think about it, how we've oriented it, the user experiences improved dramatically and in some ways it's good that we have the time, because it took a while off of the technology to catch up to our vision. You know, much in the same way that twenty years ago you could have imagined that ecommerce was going to grow. It wasn't until Amazon invented the one click, easy by button that you were able to overcome customers a version to using their credit card online right that the scary moment in the e commerce journey was the moment at which you had to enter your credit card online. And what Thesese is smart enough to figure out, among other things, is that if I could, if you could securely store that information once now, you could take away that emotional friction from the buying decision. And, by the way, once...

I've already stored my credit card info at Amazon, then why would I go to another site that's less convenient? I have to type it in again. Right Amazon could deliver a more seamless client experience. So I think there's a lot to be learned from that sector and we think those exact same forces are now driving change in the banking sector and we think that they are inevitable, so much in the way that some brick and mortar stores were initially resistant to ecommerce and they said, Oh, this is a fat and it will go away. The retail industry is littered with previously large companies, giants of retail, that are simply out of business now because they refuse to acknowledge the changes that were happening in the industry and the changes in consumer preferences. So I think you really can't be an ostrich as a company. It's very easy to rest on your laurels, but really successful companies are good at adapting to change. My favorite example of this is actually a company and upstate New York called corning, and many people think of corning as a glassware company and they still do make glass. Were but in the s they discovered that their expertise in manufacturing glass could actually make them a leading provider of fiber optic cable as bandwidth needs were increasing rapidly, and corning turn itself into a massive fiber optics company. Then all of a sudden there was a glut of capacity and fiber optics and all those networks have been built out and corning reinvented itself yet again and now they make gorilla glass, which it's a top you know, millions and millions of IPONES. So I think you know that's sort of a great example. And you compare them to another storied upstate New York Company, Kodak, which basically refused to acknowledge that digital photography was going to be a thing. You can track the fate of those two companies. So I think as we think about the large banks, and we spent a lot of time thinking about the banking sector, we think this same dynamic will play out and the banks that continue to rely on the expectation that customers will just be asleep at the switch and lazy and not really pay any attention to their bank statements, we...

...think that in the short term that's a winning strategy, but in the long term that's a losing strategy. That's great, all right. So, Gary, just one file a question. What's the last non financial decision you've made today? Well, that was probably a lunch time. So I'm my favorite bakery in New York City is the Levan Bakery. They make these incredible cookies that are sort of crunched in the outside and they're almost raw on the inside. They're absolutely delicious and we've been a little bit homesick during Covid so my wife actually made a batch of these and the tough decision today was at lunch, do I eat one of them or two of them? And what was that? Well, the answer to that well, I'm beging to delete gratification. So I one of them, but I'm reserving the option to eat the other one later. A very choice cookie. Thank you, and thanks very much to Jennifer fairty and Gary Zimmerman for letting US listen in on your conversation. We appreciate your time and perspectives and thank you for tuning in. We hope you'll join US next time on decision dialogs for more stories from successful business owners. So long for now. Thank you, for listening to decision dialogs. We hope you found today's stories helpful for your own decisionmaking. If you like to listen to more episodes, you can subscribe on your preferred podcasting APP or visit our website, where you'll also find show notes and important disclosures. WWW DOT wellcom. Forward Slash decision dialogs. This has been a production of twin flames studios.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (34)